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The Reformed Renewal
| Yesterday in Sunday School I offered a brief history of Calvinistic Baptists, including the main North American streams in existence today. I summarized the streams as follows: 1. The Neo-Evangelical Stream Leading Example: John Piper Characteristics: Calvinistic convictions arrived at from within the broad mainstream Neo-evangelical ethos. 2. The Dispensational Stream Leading Example: John Macarthur Characteristics: Calvinistic conclusions arrived at out of the generally '3-4 point Calvinist' circles of 'Dallas' dispensationalism. 3. The Fundamentalist Stream Leading Example: Spiritual heirs of TT Shields Characteristics: Distinguished from other Fundamentalists by Calvinism and at times non- Premillenial eschatology. Yet still Fundamental in ethos and association (cf. Paisley in N. Ireland, Bob Jones University, etc.) 4. The Reformed Baptist Stream Leading Example: Al Martin, Tom Ascol Characteristics: Often connected with Presbyterians, possessing the same view of the Law's implication for Christian living, particularly in the form of Sabbatarianism, and 10 commandments as normative for Christians. 5.The New Covenant Reformed Baptist Stream Leading Example: John Reisinger Characteristics: Derived from the Reformed Baptist stream, but broke away from those circles over disagreement about Sabbatarianism and the relation of the Law to the Christian. Tended to emphasize a more Christocentric view of the Law (i.e. Law is fulfilled in Christ entirely, therefore the idea of Sunday as equivalent to a Jewish Sabbath is incorrect). Can draw from Progressive Dispensational circles as well as other eschatological perspectives. There is often overlap between these different streams, and many Calvinistic Baptists would not be associated with any of them in a formal way. However the influence of the various teachers in these streams has had a significant impact within the broader Reformed Renewal of the 20th and early 21st century. To the reader I ask, 'In what stream do you find yourself?' |
posted by Clint at 11/12/2007
Comments on "The Reformed Renewal"
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Dan S. said ... (1:17 PM) :
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stauf46 said ... (2:20 PM) :
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Clint said ... (2:41 PM) :
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Don Johnson said ... (9:04 PM) :
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Dan S. said ... (10:47 PM) :
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Clint said ... (6:07 AM) :
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Don Johnson said ... (9:31 AM) :
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Clint said ... (6:18 AM) :
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Ian Vaillancourt said ... (12:37 PM) :
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Garth C.P. said ... (9:38 PM) :
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Ian said ... (1:15 PM) :
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pilgrim said ... (7:38 PM) :
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Colin G said ... (12:55 PM) :
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Colin G said ... (3:05 PM) :
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Tom Chantry said ... (7:35 AM) :
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Allen R. Mickle, Jr. said ... (7:48 AM) :
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Sterling VanDerwerker said ... (11:06 AM) :
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steve said ... (12:39 PM) :
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William D said ... (3:14 PM) :
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Clint said ... (5:35 PM) :
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Alan Kurschner said ... (6:55 PM) :
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Richard said ... (11:01 PM) :
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Clint said ... (11:26 AM) :
post a commentThe way you just described them, I would find myself somewhere on an island with stream #1 flowing down one side and stream #2 on the other.
To label me is to negate me.
Seriously, I do find myself between streams (hopefully not high and dry, though). I heard D.A. Carson avoid categorization when he was asked directly if he was in the NC Theology camp, so I feel like I'm in good company if I equivocate! I'm not in streams 2 and 3, though I have a lot of respect for those who are.
'Islands in the Stream' Dan?
I didn't know you liked country music!
Categorizations are always difficult. For example as you mention Terry, someone like D.A. Carson would agree substantially with the New Covenant advocates (as would Piper probably), however New Covenant Theology as a movement is so tiny as to be a mini-movement within a branch within a portion within a wing of confessing Christian faith!!! As a result, someone like Carson, who has a vast influence across the Evangelical spectrum, must be careful about waving banners for a tribe too small.
On another note, it is ironic that many of the Masters' Seminary grads are found in the New Covenant and Reformed Baptist circles today.
The classic Fundamentalist stream is all but non-existent, but certainly had greater strength post-WWII.
Dallas Seminary is even feeling the Calvinistic impact with John Hannah who teaches church history.
For a preview of what's coming, next Sunday I'm surveying the broader Reformed Renewal by looking at: 1) CT's Young, Restless and Reformed article, 2.)David Wells' Bleeding of the Evangelical Church essay [1995], 3.) Mark Dever's blog series Where'd All the Calvinists Come From? and 4.) my own essay, 'Breaking Fallow Ground: The Rise of Neo-Puritanism in the 20th century [late 90's and a near brush with it being published by Banner of Truth].
Interesting list. I guess I don't fit any category, not being a Calvinist, although I am definitely immersed in the fundamentalist Baptist stream.
I am curious about your comment that the fundamentalist stream is all but non-existent... I suppose that is true in Canada, but I wouldn't say that it is necessarily true in the USA. But perhaps you mean strictly the Shields-like, Calvinist form of Baptists.
I am also curious about your designation of Piper as neo-evangelical. I wonder what you mean by the term. And I wonder how you see him as distinct from MacArthur. And...
Ok, I'll quit. But if you have time, I'd be interested to see a bit more on my 'wonderings'.
Regards,
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
I'm also interested in your classifications, Clint. Specifically (with Don), how do you define neo-evangelical?
Also, you've placed MacArthur as the leading example of the dispensational stream, but he is very definitely a 5-point Calvinist and has distanced himself from the Dallas folk over the Lordship issue.
Would love to be in your Sunday School class for the next section. Any chance of getting the audio onto the CGC site?
And finally, you are correct, I don't like country music, but how could I refuse a Dolly Parton/Kenny Rogers ballad?
Thanks guys,
Here are some explanations.
When I spoke of the 'streams' I was thinking about the theological/ecclesiastical contexts in which these leaders, and men like them have come from.
For example, Piper as from the Neo-Evangelical stream goes back to his education at Wheaton & Fuller, two of the flagship schools of post WWII Neo-Evangelicalism (cf. Carl Henry, Harold Ockenga, and Billy Graham for representative leaders). Piper later taught at Bethel, a Baptist General Conference school that would certainly be in sympathy with Neo-evangelicalism. Piper lauds his mentor Dan Fuller, yet Fuller was the flashpoint in the Battle for the Bible at Fuller Seminary. All of this to say, Piper did not come out of a confessionally Calvinistic stream, and other than his childhood, he wasn't in a big B-Baptist stream either until his job at Bethel.
Macarthur as from the Dispensational stream was trained at Talbot Seminary, a school that sought to be a 'New Dallas'. When Talbot started getting shaky, Macarthur was in a position to initiate the Masters' Seminary in response. However I don't think it was Macarthur's desire to have TMS be another 'New Dallas' as much as it was Dick Mayhue's.
Certainly Macarthur's teaching made a break with Dallas at numerous points, but regarding Dispensationalism, Dallas was and continues to be the center around which all else orbits.
Regarding Fundamentalism, Don, you are correct in noting that I think the Calvinistic Fundamentalist stream has dried up. There is however still a large contingent of Fundamentalist Baptists in the US. A good example of the best among them are some of the Bible Baptist churches and schools. Many of the other Fundamentalist Baptist churches are quite rabidly anti-Calvinistic, even to the point that this antagonism is one of their defining features. Many others like yourself do not agree with Calvinism per se, but see there are bigger fish to fry in the church.
Just a side note, I think that Macarthur's Grace Community Church is still a part of IFCA (Independent Fundamental Churches of America). But although they are Fundamental in name they would often be more akin to the 'Bible Church' movement of broad Dallas dispensationalism.
Those are a few more thoughts.
Ok, I get it now. The 'stream' analogy is quite good.
As for Fundamentalism, I think there is an increase in Calvinism among the younger set. I am a BJU grad so have a good feel for the position of the faculty generally. The senior Bible faculty (most of them either my professors or my classmates) would tend towards a form of Calvinism, but probably not 5-pointers. I am not quite as clear on the position of the younger faculty.
The younger fellows coming out of BJU and other Fundamentalist schools are, however, entertaining a more thorough Calvinism. The influence of Piper is huge here, as well as MacArthur and Dever. As a convinced Fundamentalist, I am somewhat uneasy about the shift - not so much for the theology as for the direction that the associations may lead these fellows down the road. But I would say that just as there has been a resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC, there has been one amongst Fundamentalists also. Since Fundamentalists as such are in rather short supply in Canada, this may not be that evident to you. Most of the Fundamentalists in Canada would tend to be anti-Calvinistic as you describe, but even there, there are some who are decidedly Calvinistic.
Anyway, I appreciate your clarification and find your analysis quite interesting.
Regards,
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
Don,
Thanks for the take on Fundamentalism. I will always remember fondly the teaching I received from a BJU grad when I was at Master's College (He was a 5 point Calvinist--- a rarity at TMC in that day).
Your comment on Canada confirmed my thoughts, namely that Fundamentalism is in decline in Canada, though certainly not in the US.
Could the Calvinization of American Fundamentalism be due to the fact that few modern Fundamentalists are widely published authors (unlike a few decades ago) and the Pipers and Macarthurs are filling the gap?
Thanks for your comments Don,
Clint.
You know which stream I'm from, Clint - Piper and the neo-evangelicals, as you put it. I got saved in an arminian fellowship baptist church (although under the influence of a Calvinist - Dallimore's son in law). Went away to a broad evangelical school (Briercrest) where I didn't meet any Calvinists I liked. . .although I started coming to reformed convictions through reading Isaiah (i.e. could these abrasive jerks I know have correct biblical theology?). Then moved to Toronto and Tyndale, and was introduced to a Calvinist with vitality in Ryan Fullerton, who in turn introduced me to the ministry of Piper - 1998. Have been immersed ever since. I love the emphasis on God's glory and on the Word. I try to model it, though I'm light years from where I want to be in it!
Here's a throwback question for you. What about a reformed resurgence in Canada? I'm hopeful for this, although we have little to no 'big names' up here who are reformed. Is the reformed movement in Canada going to grow out of the small new covenant streams, or the effect of the american 'T4G' stream up here, or both? I asked Tim Challies the same question and we've had some good discussions about it. Wanted to hear your take. What do reformed evangelicals in Canada need in order to grow and thrive?
Ian.
P.S. I prefer Johnny Cash, Bruce Springsteen, and Paul Brandt. . .but who could resist Dolly and Kenny
Hey Clint and all,
I wish I could take part in this discussion in a more detailed way, but I have found myself realizing recently that after almost 19 years in Church and getting on to my 6th year of religious education, I know little about the various aspects of Calvinism.
I know I go to a school that is passively hostile to Calvinism. I recently chose my Christian History paper topic on the life of Calvin because I have become so frustrated that so much discussion is done about him, but I don't know how to substantiate any of it.
I do know that most of my hero's of the past and present were Calvinist (MacArthur, Piper, J. Edwards, Spurgeon)
So thank you again for the post and discussion. I sheepishly admit I am not familure with the divisions, though I have some knowledge of TULIP.
And Hey Clint ... congrats on the Kid!! ( a little late, but ...)
Garth
I'd say that I would find myself most in line with the Piper and Ascol streams.
Is there a Prebyterian stream?
Oh wait--this is Baptist streams...
Interesting reading and categorizations though.
HI Clint. Interesting post here. Thanks to you I got started reading John Piper at TBS, but I still wouldn't label myself any more precisely than "Calvinistic Baptist," and 5-point. I'm still trying to figure out if I'm "Reformed" or "New Covenant". I do feel young and restless.
cheers
It occured to me that Wayne Grudem would represent a 6th stream of calvinistic baptists, dont you think?
Fascinating discussion, and I think your categorizations are pretty accurate. However, the designation "Reformed Baptist" is confusing, isn't it? It can refer to the entire movement, or to a stream within that movement.
Many of us within the "Reformed Baptist" stream are finding that this designation is increasingly insignificant. We don't really want to copyright the word "Reformed," but there is a growing diversity among five-point Baptists. Not everyone means the same thing by "Reformed." There isn't any point in getting into extended arguments with Christian brothers, particularly with fellow Calvinists, over the meaning of "Reformed," but how does one identify a church? Someone coming from the neo-evangelical stream may call himself a "Reformed Baptist" but be considerably out of step with our church. Clarity matters to those who are moving from one city to another and seeking a church.
The designation I hear increasingly often is the phrase "Confessional Reformed Baptist." Those in the "New Covenant" stream ought not to take offense at that. It is true that other Calvinistic Baptists have adopted confessions, but the stream identified here as "Reformed Baptist" consciously defines itself according to a confession, namely the Second London Confession. That conscious definition involves a distinct usage of the confession. Thus the "connection" with Presbyterians - the kinship is based on similar confessionalism.
Clint,
Being a dispensational Calvinist (5 pointer) I would make mention of the one school you forgot, Grace Theological Seminary, Winona Lake, IN. GTS was THE dispensational Calvinistic school of the time. It was a rival to DTS because of their Calvinism. Many of the Calvinistic dispy's that are out there are products of Grace Seminary. In fact, my seminary, Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary (a Fundamentalist school) was both Dispensational and Calvinistic because all the profs were Grace Seminary grads!
Great article, very helpful.
The only alteration I would propose is to change the Dispensational title to Progressive Dispensational, that meaning the only essential is that of the future of national Israel and shunning the Strict Dispensationalism that is normally understood with the use of the singular term Dispensational, which MacArthur is not. Some call it leaky dispensational, but for us mature people, we dont like the allusion to Depends undergarments that is inherent in the adjective.
:-O
Sterling
I'm not so sure these categories have all that much benefit. The generalizations here are so broad as to say little, other than to do a bit of pigeonholing. Within each of these streams you could easily find multiple offshoots, thus further complicating the picture.
I'm grateful that MacArthur, for one, and a couple other premier Bible teachers mentioned earlier in these comments don't banter around such categories or labels, but rather, let Scripture stand as the constant reference point against which we examine our beliefs, attitudes, and actions.
I am just wondering, but why do you catagorize John Piper as a neo-evangelical?
I usually consider Rick Warren and company to be Neos.
Could you explain that a little more? Thanks
Whew! There is a lot to respond to, and Christel and I, just returned from Toronto last night, and our church plant's first baptism service this morning...
But I will respond soon...thank you for your patience.
Clint
Clint, excellent article. I thought the taxonomy was not too broad and not too tight, but just right. Defining the streams and in conjunction with their current Biblical theological framework is in my opinion the best way to break down Baptists who affirm historical Calvinism.
I also liked your brief article on teaching Greek in Seminary.
Where would you put Al Mohler?
For those following this thread, I have posted a response to the comments.
Also, for those who were directed here through the Tim Challies connection, I have commented on that thread giving a general explanation of the 'streams' and some answers to questions.
I hope this clarifies some things.
Clint